Discussion:
tourism & occupation?
(too old to reply)
Reem
2004-08-08 04:07:51 UTC
Permalink
that scl poster infatuated with the Syrian occupation dilemma, seems not to be seen and heard in al-batroun and many other places in Lebanon where tourism is booming. Earth is calling!

http://www.annaharonline.com/htd/TAHK040808-2.HTM

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BM
2004-08-08 04:37:05 UTC
Permalink
So you are saying that if there is tourism in Lebanon then nothing bad is
happening in Lebanon? If there is tourism then occupation is OK?
Has it occured to you that if there were less occupation there may be more
tourism and the country wouldn't be $30-40 B. in debt?

bassem
-=-=-=-=-=-
that scl poster infatuated with the Syrian occupation dilemma, seems not
to be seen and heard in al-batroun and many other places in Lebanon
where tourism is booming. Earth is calling!
http://www.annaharonline.com/htd/TAHK040808-2.HTM
Reem
2004-08-08 05:42:17 UTC
Permalink
Do not twist words.

If a country is occupied; tourism is generally extinct: Tibet, Palestine
(with few exceptions), Iraq, Chechnya (as its people yearn for
independence).....
Post by BM
So you are saying that if there is tourism in Lebanon then nothing bad is
happening in Lebanon? If there is tourism then occupation is OK?
Has it occured to you that if there were less occupation there may be more
tourism and the country wouldn't be $30-40 B. in debt?
bassem
-=-=-=-=-=-
that scl poster infatuated with the Syrian occupation dilemma, seems not
to be seen and heard in al-batroun and many other places in Lebanon
where tourism is booming. Earth is calling!
http://www.annaharonline.com/htd/TAHK040808-2.HTM
BM
2004-08-08 13:39:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Reem
Do not twist words.
If a country is occupied; tourism is generally extinct: Tibet, Palestine
(with few exceptions), Iraq, Chechnya (as its people yearn for
independence).....
"Tibet Tourism" search in google returns 847,000 hits.

"Palestine Tourism" returns 816,000 hits.

I had made the argument before that if there is warfare then tourist are
likely to shy away, obvious safety concern.

You are making a week argument that if there is occupation of any kind
then tourist shy away. Why? What would be the concern? Explain East
European and Germany (East, West) during the cold war.

The reason you make this argument is in order to come with a conclusion which
incidently is your starting point a denial of the occupation. So you are
making an equivalence between tourism and occupation: occupation <=> no
tourism. That's a false equivalence.

bassem
Reem
2004-08-08 18:24:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by BM
Post by Reem
Do not twist words.
If a country is occupied; tourism is generally extinct: Tibet, Palestine
(with few exceptions), Iraq, Chechnya (as its people yearn for
independence).....
"Tibet Tourism" search in google returns 847,000 hits.
"Palestine Tourism" returns 816,000 hits.
visiting Ghazzeh and al-Daffeh...or do you mean Israel "proper"? Quite
different.
Post by BM
I had made the argument before that if there is warfare then tourist are
likely to shy away, obvious safety concern.
Tourism had been booming in Lebanon....especially after Spt-11 2001. No one
is shying away. Actually, hotels can't keep up with the demand, hence
lodging prices is astronimical. Lots of peole are leaving the US and other
places to open business in Tripoli, al-koura, ....etc... Al-Batroun is
doing great ecomnically. Bhamdoun, 3alay Dier el 'amar, B3albek, ....are
ecstatic. "Prostituton" in al m3ameltayn cannot be better due to the
demands by locals as well as tourists. Fairous did a lot of concerts, and
Beit el-deen hosts numerous artisitc events, periodically. So it seems that
this famous poster in you is occupied bi 3iqdeh ekht shleeteh and can hardly
snap out of it, or getting down there in Lubnan to lead al-ta7hreer :-)
Post by BM
You are making a week argument that if there is occupation of any kind
then tourist shy away. Why?
Simple logic. Occupied people have no time to host "foreigners" and be
joyful. Making a living is not an excuse to accpet al wad3 al rahin.
Occupied people "fight" their occupiers in one way or another.
Post by BM
What would be the concern?
Abnormality.
Post by BM
Explain East European and Germany (East, West) during the cold war.
East Germany and East Europe were not occupied. They were under the
communist umbrella and their peoples were somehow part of the system. Where
do you see the occupation there? And..isn't tourism now to these regions,
much more stronger than before during the communists gloomy days?
Post by BM
The reason you make this argument is in order to come with a conclusion which
incidently is your starting point a denial of the occupation.
If your occupation premise is just a myth and non-existence, its needs not
be denied.
occupation <=> no
Post by BM
tourism. That's a false equivalence.
Your judgment is as skewed as possible. I visit home and I see lots normalcy
and happy people. I am free to roam everywhere, while I was deprived to do
so during the civil war and till the late 80's. I read you and I see
pessimism, false premises and nothing but gloomy assumptions sparing alomost
no one in Lubnan.
Earth is calling...but you seem totally oblivious and stuck.
Post by BM
bassem
BM
2004-08-08 19:45:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Reem
Post by BM
"Tibet Tourism" search in google returns 847,000 hits.
"Palestine Tourism" returns 816,000 hits.
visiting Ghazzeh and al-Daffeh...or do you mean Israel "proper"? Quite
different.
If I were referring to Israel proper I would have searched for:

"Israel tourism" 5,430,000 hits, no?

Indeed different.
Post by Reem
Post by BM
I had made the argument before that if there is warfare then tourist are
likely to shy away, obvious safety concern.
Tourism had been booming in Lebanon....especially after Spt-11 2001. No one
is shying away.
How did you actually make the determination that no one is shying away?
The 9/11 situation is different. Arabs afraid to go the US for fear of
being humiliated by the US administration, went to Lebanon. How about US
tourism to Lebanon?

Quote:
After Washington lifted its 10-year ban on travel to Lebanon in July 1997,
United States airlines were still not permitted to fly there or sell
tickets to Lebanon-bound Americans and non-United States citizens for
travel even on foreign airlines. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright
emphasized that Lebanon remained very dangerous and urged United States
citizens not to go there except for ''compelling reasons.''

Source: NY Times Aug 23, 1998
http://travel2.nytimes.com/mem/travel/article-page.html?res=990DEEDC153DF930A1575BC0A96E958260&n=Top%2fFeatures%2fTravel%2fDestinations%2fMiddle%20East
Post by Reem
Actually, hotels can't keep up with the demand, hence
lodging prices is astronimical. Lots of peole are leaving the US and other
places to open business in Tripoli, al-koura, ....etc... Al-Batroun is
doing great ecomnically. Bhamdoun, 3alay Dier el 'amar, B3albek, ....are
ecstatic. "Prostituton" in al m3ameltayn cannot be better due to the
demands by locals as well as tourists. Fairous did a lot of concerts, and
Beit el-deen hosts numerous artisitc events, periodically.
Tourism, occupation, warfare are not a binary state. With border warfare and
continued occupation, the investment atmosphere (that is money invested
in new projects either from outside or inside) is poor. Anyone you living
in Lebanon you speak to tell you there is rukud iktisadi.

When the government put the two cell phone franchises for sale there were
no takers. I wonder why. LibanPost which was run by a Canadian company on
built operate and transfer basis is in limbo. The Canadian company fled
citing unrealized profits, why?

Check the web site for LibanPost www.libanpost.com.lb. Tell me what you
find. Why?
Post by Reem
So it seems that
this famous poster in you is occupied bi 3iqdeh ekht shleeteh and can hardly
snap out of it, or getting down there in Lubnan to lead al-ta7hreer :-)
Well, I will give it to you straight. As long as the national debt is
high and increasing, all your claims of well being are false. You can play
with statistics and anecdotes as you please, the bottom line, the national
barometer of well being *is* the national debt.

My thesis is that occupation, Hizbollah border attacks, corruption
and other negative factors all influence the economy negatively and drive
the national debt up. That's not to say that you can not find rosy
exceptions in an otherwise gloomy atmosphere, you do. The rosy situations
however don't make up for the overwhelming effects on the economy by the
aforementioned negative factors.
Post by Reem
Post by BM
You are making a week argument that if there is occupation of any kind
then tourist shy away. Why?
Simple logic. Occupied people have no time to host "foreigners" and be
joyful. Making a living is not an excuse to accpet al wad3 al rahin.
Occupied people "fight" their occupiers in one way or another.
This argument is unsubstantiated. Occupied people who are not busy
resisting the occupation have plenty of time on the hand to do all the
above. What else would they be doing?

As to why the Lebanese are not resisting you have several factors:

- they are tired of civil war and would accept the devil to rule them if
the devil can promise peace and security

- many Lebanese have been co-opted by the occupation and in fact some
Lebanese have co-opted the occupation (example Hariri)

- many Lebanese have developed a symbiotic relationship with the
occupation so that they can only continue to prosper if the
occupation continues. However the success of these people is not reflect
in economic prosperity because these people tend to evade their share in
taxation.

Among other..
Post by Reem
Post by BM
What would be the concern?
Abnormality.
What is normal for a tourist? A tourist is not concerned with power
sharing for example and just wants to be able to visit baalbeck for example.
What is the occupation doing to prevent a visitor to baalbeck? Nothing.
Post by Reem
Post by BM
Explain East European and Germany (East, West) during the cold war.
East Germany and East Europe were not occupied.
Hm, I am sure that Prague residents would not agree with you (re 1968
Prague Spring, Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia).
Post by Reem
They were under the
communist umbrella and their peoples were somehow part of the system.
There were soviet troops in Eastern Europe.
Post by Reem
Where
do you see the occupation there?
De facto occupation yes. Hegemony.
Post by Reem
And..isn't tourism now to these regions,
much more stronger than before during the communists gloomy days?
Probably yes. So are you saying that E. Europe was occupied by the soviets?
Your sub-threads are mixing :-)
Post by Reem
Post by BM
The reason you make this argument is in order to come with a conclusion
which
Post by BM
incidently is your starting point a denial of the occupation.
If your occupation premise is just a myth and non-existence, its needs not
be denied.
On the other hand if occupation is true then not acknowledging it is
denial.
Post by Reem
Your judgment is as skewed as possible. I visit home and I see lots normalcy
and happy people.
30+ $B national debt. I know people in Lebanon who are not happy. Check
the immigration figures.
Post by Reem
I am free to roam everywhere,
Which does not surprise me since you are sympathetic to the occupation :-)
On a more serious note, the occupation does not stop people from roaming.
There is no economic benefit to the occupation to prevent people from roaming.
Post by Reem
while I was deprived to do
so during the civil war and till the late 80's.
So you are contrasting state of chaos to state of occupation.
Post by Reem
I read you and I see
pessimism,
If I were pessimistic you would not see me waste my time on SCL. I
participate because there is hope.
Post by Reem
false premises and nothing but gloomy assumptions sparing alomost
no one in Lubnan.
30+ $B national debt. Fix this problem and you will have my eternal
gratitude.
Post by Reem
Earth is calling...but you seem totally oblivious and stuck.
Time will tell. The situation will end one day. Vichy Lebanese protected
by the occupation and aiding the occupation will become exposed. There will
be accounting. Their time is coming.

I would end on a different note. 100 years from now we would
all be dead. History will then tell about yet another troubled period of
Lebanon history. There will be another plaque on Naher el-kalab
commemorating the Syria withdrawal. The Bible will continue to call our
patch of land Lebanon, old maps will continue to call the Lebanese cost
Phoenicia and the interior anti-Lebanon. There would be peace in the
region as our descendents colonize Mars, outer planets moons and nearby
stars.

bassem
DS
2004-08-08 16:40:35 UTC
Permalink
No, it's not OK, because what's happening beneath the surface is a lot more
sinister.

http://www.sunderland.ac.uk/~os0tmc/occupied/gender.htm

"What we now call the sex industry also grew in size with prostitution
increasing during the war. The combination of economic hardship and
increased demand from German troops led to growing numbers of prostitutes
working from licensed brothels and women working on the streets."

That of course is an extreme example of what people are willing to do to
cope with economic hardship. The numbers also state that foreigners are
gobbling up property in Lebanon in record numbers. The onslaught on Lebanese
sovereignty that started as a military effort is now an economic one running
full throttle. The current economic boom is a trojan horse that will finish
off anything remaining of Lebanese heritage.
Post by BM
So you are saying that if there is tourism in Lebanon then nothing bad is
happening in Lebanon? If there is tourism then occupation is OK?
Has it occured to you that if there were less occupation there may be more
tourism and the country wouldn't be $30-40 B. in debt?
bassem
-=-=-=-=-=-
that scl poster infatuated with the Syrian occupation dilemma, seems not
to be seen and heard in al-batroun and many other places in Lebanon
where tourism is booming. Earth is calling!
http://www.annaharonline.com/htd/TAHK040808-2.HTM
Joseph Mouhanna
2004-08-10 03:26:55 UTC
Permalink
The Lebanese economic situation should be evaluated as a whole and not in
piecemeal fashion.

Residential and tourism construction (restaurants, hotels, water parks,
etc.). This sector is booming thanks to a couple of factors:

1. The Lebanese Diaspora: occupation or not, Israel, Syria, PLO, Hizballah,
etc. it does not matter. As long as there is no open warfare, the Lebanese
will continue to pour in, especially American-Lebanese. Even
Hizballah-Israel skirmishes do not put Emanuella (South of Tyre) out of
business, and does not stop a group of 12 people from enjoying a lunch of
fresh fish and all the trimmings while Israeli jets break the sound barrier
in the background. Those Lebanese are also buying land and building in
record numbers. Their investments are not a vote of confidence in the
Lebanese government, nor are they an indication that Lebanese is or is not
under occupation. To most, it's like investing in the stock market: if you
can't afford to lose it, you'd be stupid to be there in the first place.

2. Gulf-State Arabs: These folks are avoiding America and Europe, as well as
diversifying their portfolios. It's also a way for them to cash in on the
boom in tourism on the part of the Lebanese Diaspora. In short, it's smart
business and just as in the case of the stock market, it's money they can
afford to lose, and not a statement on occupation of Lebanon or lack
thereof.

Yes, the Batroun nightclub scene is very lively. The government and the
status of Lebanon (occupied or not) had nothing to do with it. The personal
initiative of some American-Lebanese from the Batroun area did it. You can
spend two months in Batroun, go to a different nightclub and restaurant
every night, and still would not run out of quality places to go. If you
peel away the outer layers though, the local economy is not benefiting as it
should. Most of the labor is foreign, and most of the liquor is not locally
produced. Construction design is done by Lebanese, but the actual
construction labor itself is nearly 100% foreign (no taxes going to the
Lebanese government). Tourists arrive for the summer, eat in restaurants,
and leave as summer ends. One local bakery owner, who is so busy he has to
run his crew 14-hour days, 7 days a week told me that he would hop on the
first flight out to the US or Canada if he gets a half chance, and this was
a constant theme.

The tourism industry also requires an attitude that the Lebanese do not
have: humility and a "customer is always right" attitude (not there either).

I traveled in the Middle East this summer, and while family ties force me to
keep coming back to Lebanon, I found other countries, including those that
the Lebanese look down upon, much more pleasant (roads, attitudes, driving
habits, etc.).

As for prostitution, it's on the *rise*, but that's not a stability or
political indicator. During the darkest days of the war, prostitution was
also booming in Maameltain. It's regulated now.

Anyone who gets a half chance to emigrate is taking it, and those who run
restaurants (and live in Lebanon) would love nothing more than be able to
run those restaurants outside of Lebanon, and then go back for the summer to
eat and enjoy themselves.

Where is the infrastructure? the famous autostrade is nearly completed.
After 28 years of construction, they finally started painting yellow lines
on the outer edges. Perhaps they'll paint internal lanes by the end of
summer, oh, and it would help if the freeway lights on at night so people
can see where they're going. While we're at it why not shut down the illegal
on/off roads and get rid of bus stops *on* the freeway. It may also help to
build decent roads into Lebanese mountains (how about improving the
Beirut-Damascus road, it's quite busy after all). It would also be great if
traffic police issue tickets to drivers who drive in the wrong direction on
the freeway (because their "house or business is just around the corner"),
instead of *inventing* laws and regulations to make money off drivers (they,
not the government, make money by *fixing* the problem on the spot). The
list is very long, but it would also be nice if this freeway is completed
North to South.

Where is electrical power? Power is so expensive in Lebanon, it's
ridiculous. Power bills can run into the hundreds of dollars. With prices so
high, why is the government not capable of providing power more than 40% of
the time?

Where is the water? who do homes and businesses have to subscribe to water
delivery services? if delivery services are capable of tapping into water,
why can't the government?

Why does it cost so much for phone (cell and land)? It's rip-off.

Why do people have so little respect for each other? Why are they always on
the prowl, looking for the next person to screw over? The way they drive:
cutting people off, passing on the right, left, shoulder, etc. not only
creates hazardous driving conditions, it also creates traffic jams and shows
how people think individually and not how the traffic as a whole should
flow. One day in July, they shut traffic down in Halat to fix the
South-bound lane. Instead of splitting the North-bound lane into two, the
South-bound traffic took over completely (as if this was not sufficient, my
driver opened up a freeway-shoulder lane), meanwhile a large group of
traffic police were smoking their cigarettes, waiting for the situation to
take care of itself.

Where is community sense? it does not exist. People put politics ahead of
everything else. The people who support the Syria accountability act do so
not out of a desire to see Syrian troops out, but because Syria does not
support the corrupt politician they call their leader.

Why don't we have a decent Internet service in Lebanon. I gave up on
connectivity this summer, it's not worth the wait.

Frankly, Syria is the least of our problems. There's an entire mentality
thing that needs to change before the country can decide whether or not it's
occupied.

I may be on a rant here, but 10 weeks in Lebanon in 2004 will do that to you
(and I'll be going back for more once or twice before the year is out).

--Joseph
Post by DS
No, it's not OK, because what's happening beneath the surface is a lot more
sinister.
http://www.sunderland.ac.uk/~os0tmc/occupied/gender.htm
"What we now call the sex industry also grew in size with prostitution
increasing during the war. The combination of economic hardship and
increased demand from German troops led to growing numbers of prostitutes
working from licensed brothels and women working on the streets."
That of course is an extreme example of what people are willing to do to
cope with economic hardship. The numbers also state that foreigners are
gobbling up property in Lebanon in record numbers. The onslaught on Lebanese
sovereignty that started as a military effort is now an economic one running
full throttle. The current economic boom is a trojan horse that will finish
off anything remaining of Lebanese heritage.
Post by BM
So you are saying that if there is tourism in Lebanon then nothing bad is
happening in Lebanon? If there is tourism then occupation is OK?
Has it occured to you that if there were less occupation there may be more
tourism and the country wouldn't be $30-40 B. in debt?
bassem
DS
2004-08-12 01:16:01 UTC
Permalink
Joseph,
Your objective observations are noted. The Lebanese have a long way to go,
no doubt.
Let me add one more thing. The contiued lack of respect for and destruction
of the environment, lack of infrastructure to take advantage of natural
resources, like building dams to store precious water and generate cheap and
clean power, are ways in which many Lebanese demonstrate that their stay
there is temporary, at best. In that sense, I have no doubt a lot of
Lebanese would emigrate if given the chance.
Once again, thank you, Joseph, for this detailed report.

dimitri
Post by Joseph Mouhanna
The Lebanese economic situation should be evaluated as a whole and not in
piecemeal fashion.
Residential and tourism construction (restaurants, hotels, water parks,
1. The Lebanese Diaspora: occupation or not, Israel, Syria, PLO, Hizballah,
etc. it does not matter. As long as there is no open warfare, the Lebanese
will continue to pour in, especially American-Lebanese. Even
Hizballah-Israel skirmishes do not put Emanuella (South of Tyre) out of
business, and does not stop a group of 12 people from enjoying a lunch of
fresh fish and all the trimmings while Israeli jets break the sound barrier
in the background. Those Lebanese are also buying land and building in
record numbers. Their investments are not a vote of confidence in the
Lebanese government, nor are they an indication that Lebanese is or is not
under occupation. To most, it's like investing in the stock market: if you
can't afford to lose it, you'd be stupid to be there in the first place.
2. Gulf-State Arabs: These folks are avoiding America and Europe, as well as
diversifying their portfolios. It's also a way for them to cash in on the
boom in tourism on the part of the Lebanese Diaspora. In short, it's smart
business and just as in the case of the stock market, it's money they can
afford to lose, and not a statement on occupation of Lebanon or lack
thereof.
Yes, the Batroun nightclub scene is very lively. The government and the
status of Lebanon (occupied or not) had nothing to do with it. The personal
initiative of some American-Lebanese from the Batroun area did it. You can
spend two months in Batroun, go to a different nightclub and restaurant
every night, and still would not run out of quality places to go. If you
peel away the outer layers though, the local economy is not benefiting as it
should. Most of the labor is foreign, and most of the liquor is not locally
produced. Construction design is done by Lebanese, but the actual
construction labor itself is nearly 100% foreign (no taxes going to the
Lebanese government). Tourists arrive for the summer, eat in restaurants,
and leave as summer ends. One local bakery owner, who is so busy he has to
run his crew 14-hour days, 7 days a week told me that he would hop on the
first flight out to the US or Canada if he gets a half chance, and this was
a constant theme.
The tourism industry also requires an attitude that the Lebanese do not
have: humility and a "customer is always right" attitude (not there either).
I traveled in the Middle East this summer, and while family ties force me to
keep coming back to Lebanon, I found other countries, including those that
the Lebanese look down upon, much more pleasant (roads, attitudes, driving
habits, etc.).
As for prostitution, it's on the *rise*, but that's not a stability or
political indicator. During the darkest days of the war, prostitution was
also booming in Maameltain. It's regulated now.
Anyone who gets a half chance to emigrate is taking it, and those who run
restaurants (and live in Lebanon) would love nothing more than be able to
run those restaurants outside of Lebanon, and then go back for the summer to
eat and enjoy themselves.
Where is the infrastructure? the famous autostrade is nearly completed.
After 28 years of construction, they finally started painting yellow lines
on the outer edges. Perhaps they'll paint internal lanes by the end of
summer, oh, and it would help if the freeway lights on at night so people
can see where they're going. While we're at it why not shut down the illegal
on/off roads and get rid of bus stops *on* the freeway. It may also help to
build decent roads into Lebanese mountains (how about improving the
Beirut-Damascus road, it's quite busy after all). It would also be great if
traffic police issue tickets to drivers who drive in the wrong direction on
the freeway (because their "house or business is just around the corner"),
instead of *inventing* laws and regulations to make money off drivers (they,
not the government, make money by *fixing* the problem on the spot). The
list is very long, but it would also be nice if this freeway is completed
North to South.
Where is electrical power? Power is so expensive in Lebanon, it's
ridiculous. Power bills can run into the hundreds of dollars. With prices so
high, why is the government not capable of providing power more than 40% of
the time?
Where is the water? who do homes and businesses have to subscribe to water
delivery services? if delivery services are capable of tapping into water,
why can't the government?
Why does it cost so much for phone (cell and land)? It's rip-off.
Why do people have so little respect for each other? Why are they always on
cutting people off, passing on the right, left, shoulder, etc. not only
creates hazardous driving conditions, it also creates traffic jams and shows
how people think individually and not how the traffic as a whole should
flow. One day in July, they shut traffic down in Halat to fix the
South-bound lane. Instead of splitting the North-bound lane into two, the
South-bound traffic took over completely (as if this was not sufficient, my
driver opened up a freeway-shoulder lane), meanwhile a large group of
traffic police were smoking their cigarettes, waiting for the situation to
take care of itself.
Where is community sense? it does not exist. People put politics ahead of
everything else. The people who support the Syria accountability act do so
not out of a desire to see Syrian troops out, but because Syria does not
support the corrupt politician they call their leader.
Why don't we have a decent Internet service in Lebanon. I gave up on
connectivity this summer, it's not worth the wait.
Frankly, Syria is the least of our problems. There's an entire mentality
thing that needs to change before the country can decide whether or not it's
occupied.
I may be on a rant here, but 10 weeks in Lebanon in 2004 will do that to you
(and I'll be going back for more once or twice before the year is out).
--Joseph
Post by DS
No, it's not OK, because what's happening beneath the surface is a lot
more
Post by DS
sinister.
http://www.sunderland.ac.uk/~os0tmc/occupied/gender.htm
"What we now call the sex industry also grew in size with prostitution
increasing during the war. The combination of economic hardship and
increased demand from German troops led to growing numbers of prostitutes
working from licensed brothels and women working on the streets."
That of course is an extreme example of what people are willing to do to
cope with economic hardship. The numbers also state that foreigners are
gobbling up property in Lebanon in record numbers. The onslaught on
Lebanese
Post by DS
sovereignty that started as a military effort is now an economic one
running
Post by DS
full throttle. The current economic boom is a trojan horse that will
finish
Post by DS
off anything remaining of Lebanese heritage.
Post by BM
So you are saying that if there is tourism in Lebanon then nothing bad
is
Post by DS
Post by BM
happening in Lebanon? If there is tourism then occupation is OK?
Has it occured to you that if there were less occupation there may be
more
Post by DS
Post by BM
tourism and the country wouldn't be $30-40 B. in debt?
bassem
Joseph Mouhanna
2004-08-16 21:13:59 UTC
Permalink
DS, this is only a partial list :-)

Nothing seems to be moving forward. In September of 1994, a planning
conference was held in Batroun (for the Batroun area). I recently found a
book detailing topics and recommendations. Flipping through the book, I
found that problems were highlighted and solutions proposed. It's sad to see
that, ten years later, the problems remain the same and nearly none of the
proposed solutions have been implemented. If I find the time, I will publish
excerpts on SCL (the book is pretty dense). Most alarming are environmental
issues, that not only have not been addressed since 1994, but have gotten
far worse.

I remain optimistic about Lebanon, and hope that what I write on SCL will,
even in the tiniest of ways, make a difference for the better.
Post by DS
Joseph,
Your objective observations are noted. The Lebanese have a long way to go,
no doubt.
Let me add one more thing. The contiued lack of respect for and destruction
of the environment, lack of infrastructure to take advantage of natural
resources, like building dams to store precious water and generate cheap and
clean power, are ways in which many Lebanese demonstrate that their stay
there is temporary, at best. In that sense, I have no doubt a lot of
Lebanese would emigrate if given the chance.
Once again, thank you, Joseph, for this detailed report.
dimitri
Post by Joseph Mouhanna
The Lebanese economic situation should be evaluated as a whole and not in
piecemeal fashion.
Residential and tourism construction (restaurants, hotels, water parks,
1. The Lebanese Diaspora: occupation or not, Israel, Syria, PLO, Hizballah,
etc. it does not matter. As long as there is no open warfare, the Lebanese
will continue to pour in, especially American-Lebanese. Even
Hizballah-Israel skirmishes do not put Emanuella (South of Tyre) out of
business, and does not stop a group of 12 people from enjoying a lunch of
fresh fish and all the trimmings while Israeli jets break the sound barrier
in the background. Those Lebanese are also buying land and building in
record numbers. Their investments are not a vote of confidence in the
Lebanese government, nor are they an indication that Lebanese is or is not
under occupation. To most, it's like investing in the stock market: if you
can't afford to lose it, you'd be stupid to be there in the first place.
2. Gulf-State Arabs: These folks are avoiding America and Europe, as
well
Post by DS
Post by Joseph Mouhanna
as
diversifying their portfolios. It's also a way for them to cash in on the
boom in tourism on the part of the Lebanese Diaspora. In short, it's smart
business and just as in the case of the stock market, it's money they can
afford to lose, and not a statement on occupation of Lebanon or lack
thereof.
Yes, the Batroun nightclub scene is very lively. The government and the
status of Lebanon (occupied or not) had nothing to do with it. The personal
initiative of some American-Lebanese from the Batroun area did it. You can
spend two months in Batroun, go to a different nightclub and restaurant
every night, and still would not run out of quality places to go. If you
peel away the outer layers though, the local economy is not benefiting
as
Post by DS
Post by Joseph Mouhanna
it
should. Most of the labor is foreign, and most of the liquor is not locally
produced. Construction design is done by Lebanese, but the actual
construction labor itself is nearly 100% foreign (no taxes going to the
Lebanese government). Tourists arrive for the summer, eat in
restaurants,
Post by DS
Post by Joseph Mouhanna
and leave as summer ends. One local bakery owner, who is so busy he has to
run his crew 14-hour days, 7 days a week told me that he would hop on the
first flight out to the US or Canada if he gets a half chance, and this was
a constant theme.
The tourism industry also requires an attitude that the Lebanese do not
have: humility and a "customer is always right" attitude (not there either).
I traveled in the Middle East this summer, and while family ties force
me
Post by DS
Post by Joseph Mouhanna
to
keep coming back to Lebanon, I found other countries, including those that
the Lebanese look down upon, much more pleasant (roads, attitudes, driving
habits, etc.).
As for prostitution, it's on the *rise*, but that's not a stability or
political indicator. During the darkest days of the war, prostitution was
also booming in Maameltain. It's regulated now.
Anyone who gets a half chance to emigrate is taking it, and those who run
restaurants (and live in Lebanon) would love nothing more than be able to
run those restaurants outside of Lebanon, and then go back for the
summer
Post by DS
Post by Joseph Mouhanna
to
eat and enjoy themselves.
Where is the infrastructure? the famous autostrade is nearly completed.
After 28 years of construction, they finally started painting yellow lines
on the outer edges. Perhaps they'll paint internal lanes by the end of
summer, oh, and it would help if the freeway lights on at night so people
can see where they're going. While we're at it why not shut down the illegal
on/off roads and get rid of bus stops *on* the freeway. It may also help to
build decent roads into Lebanese mountains (how about improving the
Beirut-Damascus road, it's quite busy after all). It would also be great if
traffic police issue tickets to drivers who drive in the wrong direction on
the freeway (because their "house or business is just around the corner"),
instead of *inventing* laws and regulations to make money off drivers (they,
not the government, make money by *fixing* the problem on the spot). The
list is very long, but it would also be nice if this freeway is completed
North to South.
Where is electrical power? Power is so expensive in Lebanon, it's
ridiculous. Power bills can run into the hundreds of dollars. With
prices
Post by DS
Post by Joseph Mouhanna
so
high, why is the government not capable of providing power more than 40% of
the time?
Where is the water? who do homes and businesses have to subscribe to water
delivery services? if delivery services are capable of tapping into water,
why can't the government?
Why does it cost so much for phone (cell and land)? It's rip-off.
Why do people have so little respect for each other? Why are they always on
cutting people off, passing on the right, left, shoulder, etc. not only
creates hazardous driving conditions, it also creates traffic jams and shows
how people think individually and not how the traffic as a whole should
flow. One day in July, they shut traffic down in Halat to fix the
South-bound lane. Instead of splitting the North-bound lane into two, the
South-bound traffic took over completely (as if this was not sufficient, my
driver opened up a freeway-shoulder lane), meanwhile a large group of
traffic police were smoking their cigarettes, waiting for the situation to
take care of itself.
Where is community sense? it does not exist. People put politics ahead of
everything else. The people who support the Syria accountability act do so
not out of a desire to see Syrian troops out, but because Syria does not
support the corrupt politician they call their leader.
Why don't we have a decent Internet service in Lebanon. I gave up on
connectivity this summer, it's not worth the wait.
Frankly, Syria is the least of our problems. There's an entire mentality
thing that needs to change before the country can decide whether or not it's
occupied.
I may be on a rant here, but 10 weeks in Lebanon in 2004 will do that to you
(and I'll be going back for more once or twice before the year is out).
--Joseph
Post by DS
No, it's not OK, because what's happening beneath the surface is a lot
more
Post by DS
sinister.
http://www.sunderland.ac.uk/~os0tmc/occupied/gender.htm
"What we now call the sex industry also grew in size with prostitution
increasing during the war. The combination of economic hardship and
increased demand from German troops led to growing numbers of prostitutes
working from licensed brothels and women working on the streets."
That of course is an extreme example of what people are willing to do to
cope with economic hardship. The numbers also state that foreigners are
gobbling up property in Lebanon in record numbers. The onslaught on
Lebanese
Post by DS
sovereignty that started as a military effort is now an economic one
running
Post by DS
full throttle. The current economic boom is a trojan horse that will
finish
Post by DS
off anything remaining of Lebanese heritage.
Post by BM
So you are saying that if there is tourism in Lebanon then nothing bad
is
Post by DS
Post by BM
happening in Lebanon? If there is tourism then occupation is OK?
Has it occured to you that if there were less occupation there may be
more
Post by DS
Post by BM
tourism and the country wouldn't be $30-40 B. in debt?
bassem
DS
2004-08-16 23:33:52 UTC
Permalink
I understand what you're saying, Joseph.

If I were to distill the problem into a single issue, it would be the level
of maturity the Lebanese have attained as a people. The lack of respect for
the environment is a manifestation of this problem. I don't know how much
the Lebanese have matured since the creation of Greater Lebanon, if any. My
opinion so far is that they're currently headed, or are being pushed, in the
wrong direction. The dilemma is finding the best method to allow the
Lebanese to achieve maturity. Can they do it on their own - and I've read
skepticism in your initial reply, to which I agree with, but to a certain
degree - or must they rely on an imperfect external entity to keep them
inline in hopes that the people will mature one day? Who has the power to
allow this process to move forward (if at all possible)? At the end of the
day, someone *is* accountable, and as long as the Lebanese don't have
control of their own destiny at present, they cannot presently be held
accountable for the big picture.
I think there is plenty of wiggle room for the Lebanese to make things
better, but that requires faith in the future of the country and a unified
vision by most Lebanese. I think faith is needed because the empirical data
does not look too promising. I have faith in the capability of the Lebanese
people. I would even say that I am optimistic as well, even if as of late I
consider it foolish optimism.

Dimitri
Post by Joseph Mouhanna
DS, this is only a partial list :-)
Nothing seems to be moving forward. In September of 1994, a planning
conference was held in Batroun (for the Batroun area). I recently found a
book detailing topics and recommendations. Flipping through the book, I
found that problems were highlighted and solutions proposed. It's sad to see
that, ten years later, the problems remain the same and nearly none of the
proposed solutions have been implemented. If I find the time, I will publish
excerpts on SCL (the book is pretty dense). Most alarming are
environmental
issues, that not only have not been addressed since 1994, but have gotten
far worse.
I remain optimistic about Lebanon, and hope that what I write on SCL will,
even in the tiniest of ways, make a difference for the better.
Post by DS
Joseph,
Your objective observations are noted. The Lebanese have a long way to go,
no doubt.
Let me add one more thing. The contiued lack of respect for and
destruction
Post by DS
of the environment, lack of infrastructure to take advantage of natural
resources, like building dams to store precious water and generate cheap
and
Post by DS
clean power, are ways in which many Lebanese demonstrate that their stay
there is temporary, at best. In that sense, I have no doubt a lot of
Lebanese would emigrate if given the chance.
Once again, thank you, Joseph, for this detailed report.
dimitri
Post by Joseph Mouhanna
The Lebanese economic situation should be evaluated as a whole and not
in
Post by DS
Post by Joseph Mouhanna
piecemeal fashion.
Residential and tourism construction (restaurants, hotels, water parks,
1. The Lebanese Diaspora: occupation or not, Israel, Syria, PLO, Hizballah,
etc. it does not matter. As long as there is no open warfare, the
Lebanese
Post by DS
Post by Joseph Mouhanna
will continue to pour in, especially American-Lebanese. Even
Hizballah-Israel skirmishes do not put Emanuella (South of Tyre) out of
business, and does not stop a group of 12 people from enjoying a lunch
of
Post by DS
Post by Joseph Mouhanna
fresh fish and all the trimmings while Israeli jets break the sound barrier
in the background. Those Lebanese are also buying land and building in
record numbers. Their investments are not a vote of confidence in the
Lebanese government, nor are they an indication that Lebanese is or is
not
Post by DS
Post by Joseph Mouhanna
under occupation. To most, it's like investing in the stock market: if
you
Post by DS
Post by Joseph Mouhanna
can't afford to lose it, you'd be stupid to be there in the first place.
2. Gulf-State Arabs: These folks are avoiding America and Europe, as
well
Post by DS
Post by Joseph Mouhanna
as
diversifying their portfolios. It's also a way for them to cash in on
the
Post by DS
Post by Joseph Mouhanna
boom in tourism on the part of the Lebanese Diaspora. In short, it's
smart
Post by DS
Post by Joseph Mouhanna
business and just as in the case of the stock market, it's money they
can
Post by DS
Post by Joseph Mouhanna
afford to lose, and not a statement on occupation of Lebanon or lack
thereof.
Yes, the Batroun nightclub scene is very lively. The government and the
status of Lebanon (occupied or not) had nothing to do with it. The personal
initiative of some American-Lebanese from the Batroun area did it. You
can
Post by DS
Post by Joseph Mouhanna
spend two months in Batroun, go to a different nightclub and restaurant
every night, and still would not run out of quality places to go. If you
peel away the outer layers though, the local economy is not benefiting
as
Post by DS
Post by Joseph Mouhanna
it
should. Most of the labor is foreign, and most of the liquor is not locally
produced. Construction design is done by Lebanese, but the actual
construction labor itself is nearly 100% foreign (no taxes going to the
Lebanese government). Tourists arrive for the summer, eat in
restaurants,
Post by DS
Post by Joseph Mouhanna
and leave as summer ends. One local bakery owner, who is so busy he has
to
Post by DS
Post by Joseph Mouhanna
run his crew 14-hour days, 7 days a week told me that he would hop on
the
Post by DS
Post by Joseph Mouhanna
first flight out to the US or Canada if he gets a half chance, and this was
a constant theme.
The tourism industry also requires an attitude that the Lebanese do not
have: humility and a "customer is always right" attitude (not there either).
I traveled in the Middle East this summer, and while family ties force
me
Post by DS
Post by Joseph Mouhanna
to
keep coming back to Lebanon, I found other countries, including those
that
Post by DS
Post by Joseph Mouhanna
the Lebanese look down upon, much more pleasant (roads, attitudes,
driving
Post by DS
Post by Joseph Mouhanna
habits, etc.).
As for prostitution, it's on the *rise*, but that's not a stability or
political indicator. During the darkest days of the war, prostitution
was
Post by DS
Post by Joseph Mouhanna
also booming in Maameltain. It's regulated now.
Anyone who gets a half chance to emigrate is taking it, and those who
run
Post by DS
Post by Joseph Mouhanna
restaurants (and live in Lebanon) would love nothing more than be able
to
Post by DS
Post by Joseph Mouhanna
run those restaurants outside of Lebanon, and then go back for the
summer
Post by DS
Post by Joseph Mouhanna
to
eat and enjoy themselves.
Where is the infrastructure? the famous autostrade is nearly completed.
After 28 years of construction, they finally started painting yellow
lines
Post by DS
Post by Joseph Mouhanna
on the outer edges. Perhaps they'll paint internal lanes by the end of
summer, oh, and it would help if the freeway lights on at night so
people
Post by DS
Post by Joseph Mouhanna
can see where they're going. While we're at it why not shut down the illegal
on/off roads and get rid of bus stops *on* the freeway. It may also
help
to
build decent roads into Lebanese mountains (how about improving the
Beirut-Damascus road, it's quite busy after all). It would also be
great
if
traffic police issue tickets to drivers who drive in the wrong
direction
on
the freeway (because their "house or business is just around the
corner"),
Post by DS
Post by Joseph Mouhanna
instead of *inventing* laws and regulations to make money off drivers (they,
not the government, make money by *fixing* the problem on the spot). The
list is very long, but it would also be nice if this freeway is
completed
Post by DS
Post by Joseph Mouhanna
North to South.
Where is electrical power? Power is so expensive in Lebanon, it's
ridiculous. Power bills can run into the hundreds of dollars. With
prices
Post by DS
Post by Joseph Mouhanna
so
high, why is the government not capable of providing power more than
40%
of
the time?
Where is the water? who do homes and businesses have to subscribe to
water
Post by DS
Post by Joseph Mouhanna
delivery services? if delivery services are capable of tapping into
water,
Post by DS
Post by Joseph Mouhanna
why can't the government?
Why does it cost so much for phone (cell and land)? It's rip-off.
Why do people have so little respect for each other? Why are they
always
on
the prowl, looking for the next person to screw over? The way they
cutting people off, passing on the right, left, shoulder, etc. not only
creates hazardous driving conditions, it also creates traffic jams and shows
how people think individually and not how the traffic as a whole should
flow. One day in July, they shut traffic down in Halat to fix the
South-bound lane. Instead of splitting the North-bound lane into two,
the
Post by DS
Post by Joseph Mouhanna
South-bound traffic took over completely (as if this was not
sufficient,
my
driver opened up a freeway-shoulder lane), meanwhile a large group of
traffic police were smoking their cigarettes, waiting for the situation
to
Post by DS
Post by Joseph Mouhanna
take care of itself.
Where is community sense? it does not exist. People put politics ahead
of
Post by DS
Post by Joseph Mouhanna
everything else. The people who support the Syria accountability act do
so
Post by DS
Post by Joseph Mouhanna
not out of a desire to see Syrian troops out, but because Syria does not
support the corrupt politician they call their leader.
Why don't we have a decent Internet service in Lebanon. I gave up on
connectivity this summer, it's not worth the wait.
Frankly, Syria is the least of our problems. There's an entire mentality
thing that needs to change before the country can decide whether or not it's
occupied.
I may be on a rant here, but 10 weeks in Lebanon in 2004 will do that
to
you
(and I'll be going back for more once or twice before the year is out).
--Joseph
Post by DS
No, it's not OK, because what's happening beneath the surface is a lot
more
Post by DS
sinister.
http://www.sunderland.ac.uk/~os0tmc/occupied/gender.htm
"What we now call the sex industry also grew in size with prostitution
increasing during the war. The combination of economic hardship and
increased demand from German troops led to growing numbers of
prostitutes
Post by DS
Post by Joseph Mouhanna
Post by DS
working from licensed brothels and women working on the streets."
That of course is an extreme example of what people are willing to do
to
Post by DS
Post by Joseph Mouhanna
Post by DS
cope with economic hardship. The numbers also state that foreigners are
gobbling up property in Lebanon in record numbers. The onslaught on
Lebanese
Post by DS
sovereignty that started as a military effort is now an economic one
running
Post by DS
full throttle. The current economic boom is a trojan horse that will
finish
Post by DS
off anything remaining of Lebanese heritage.
Post by BM
So you are saying that if there is tourism in Lebanon then nothing
bad
Post by DS
Post by Joseph Mouhanna
is
Post by DS
Post by BM
happening in Lebanon? If there is tourism then occupation is OK?
Has it occured to you that if there were less occupation there may be
more
Post by DS
Post by BM
tourism and the country wouldn't be $30-40 B. in debt?
bassem
BM
2004-08-17 03:18:51 UTC
Permalink
My thoughts on this thread:

We're a bunch of people who live on the same patch of land who don't
know how to get along. A mandate authority French or Syrian is no substitute.
If you wipe out Lebanon from the political map and marge it with a neighboring
country you will still have the same people who don't know how to get along but
living in a larger patch of land. What some of our friends here on this forum
call a "farm" will become an even bigger farm.

The problem is common purpose. Lebanese don't appear to believe in a
common purpose. The first order is self, then family, then sect and, at the
bottom of the stack, country. Maturity will not change the order of loyalty.
We need to agree on a loyalty that makes sense to all. We need to separate
deen from dunya.

As a Lebanese, I can not believe in anything but Lebanon even if every invader
occupies and the last Lebanese flees. What's left would still be my Lebanon.
I am optimistic that Lebanon will survive its current undeserving inhabitants.
Everyone who comes to Lebanon after enough generations pass start calling selves
Lebanese. The magic is not in the people but in the land. The current
occupants of Lebanon don't deserve it. They have certainly not earned it.
Perhaps they should move out and let a people more deserving settle
in the place who would have no problem pledging their loyalty to the land
called Lebanon.

bassem
RodrYguez
2004-08-18 20:39:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by BM
We're a bunch of people who live on the same patch of land who don't
know how to get along. A mandate authority French or Syrian is no substitute.
If you wipe out Lebanon from the political map and marge it with a neighboring
country you will still have the same people who don't know how to get along but
living in a larger patch of land. What some of our friends here on this forum
call a "farm" will become an even bigger farm.
The problem is common purpose. Lebanese don't appear to believe in a
common purpose. The first order is self, then family, then sect and, at the
bottom of the stack, country. Maturity will not change the order of loyalty.
We need to agree on a loyalty that makes sense to all. We need to separate
deen from dunya.
As a Lebanese, I can not believe in anything but Lebanon even if every invader
occupies and the last Lebanese flees. What's left would still be my Lebanon.
I am optimistic that Lebanon will survive its current undeserving inhabitants.
Everyone who comes to Lebanon after enough generations pass start calling selves
Lebanese. The magic is not in the people but in the land. The current
occupants of Lebanon don't deserve it. They have certainly not earned it.
Perhaps they should move out and let a people more deserving settle
in the place who would have no problem pledging their loyalty to the land
called Lebanon.
bassem
What is disgusting in Lebanon is the "Tashlee7 method".
Wherever you go, people look at you just to wipe the money off your
pockets.

Rod
RodrYguez
2004-08-18 21:46:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by BM
The magic is not in the people but in the land.
These are the words of truth, Bassem.

I once was visiting Lebanon in company of one Lebanese idiot (i say
idiot because every time he opened his mouth you could be sure that
it was to throw one big idioty). I was looking at the landscape and
said : "What a beautifull land". And the idiot replied :
"And you should see the people !"
Post by BM
bassem
Rod
--
I'm a Social Engineering Specialist - "Because there's no patch for
Human Stupidity"
DrSMITH
2004-08-19 23:26:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by BM
We're a bunch of people who live on the same patch of land who don't
know how to get along. A mandate authority French or Syrian is no substitute.
If you wipe out Lebanon from the political map and marge it with a neighboring
country you will still have the same people who don't know how to get along but
living in a larger patch of land. What some of our friends here on this forum
call a "farm" will become an even bigger farm.
Orwell? :-)
Post by BM
The problem is common purpose. Lebanese don't appear to believe in a
common purpose. The first order is self, then family, then sect and, at the
bottom of the stack, country. Maturity will not change the order of loyalty.
We need to agree on a loyalty that makes sense to all. We need to separate
deen from dunya.
Lebanese learn dunya through deen since childhood. A secular dunya
concept is not easy to inculcate.
Post by BM
As a Lebanese, I can not believe in anything but Lebanon even if every invader
occupies and the last Lebanese flees. What's left would still be my Lebanon.
I am optimistic that Lebanon will survive its current undeserving inhabitants.
Everyone who comes to Lebanon after enough generations pass start calling selves
Lebanese. The magic is not in the people but in the land. The current
occupants of Lebanon don't deserve it. They have certainly not earned it.
In other words, to become a Nation deserving a State.
Post by BM
Perhaps they should move out and let a people more deserving settle
in the place who would have no problem pledging their loyalty to the land
called Lebanon.
Maybe a common disaster can unite them ... but that's a pessimistic
wish.
Post by BM
bassem
Joseph Mouhanna
2004-08-20 04:52:52 UTC
Permalink
"DrSMITH" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:***@posting.google.com...
[.....]
Post by DrSMITH
Maybe a common disaster can unite them ... but that's a pessimistic
wish.
You mean something like a 16-year savage and devastating resulting in the
emigration of more than half the population, hundreds of thousands of
civilian deaths, and complete economic collapse?
DrSMITH
2004-08-20 21:44:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joseph Mouhanna
[.....]
Post by DrSMITH
Maybe a common disaster can unite them ... but that's a pessimistic
wish.
You mean something like a 16-year savage and devastating resulting in the
emigration of more than half the population, hundreds of thousands of
civilian deaths, and complete economic collapse?
With if's and maybe's, one can put Paris in a bottle as goes the
saying in french. Sadly, the "disaster" you're mentioning didn't have
any effect on Lebanese. They're still as uncaring and arrogant people
as ever. Emigration is still a common objective among youth, and the
economic collapse is a daily fact. The stories of crooks abound. The
social differences are economic nowadays, and not religious or
sectarian anymore: politicians (and I include religious figures) in
Lebanon and their sectarian agendas are the only poison in the
country. At least, this is the impression I had.

DrSMITH.
Joseph Mouhanna
2004-08-25 03:26:33 UTC
Permalink
I posted a quick synopsis of our Lebanon trip this summer a couple of weeks
ago. If 16 years of war did not teach the Lebanese a lesson, nothing will.
Corruption in Lebanon, as you mention, is not sectarian and is probably the
only non-sectarian agenda around.
Post by DrSMITH
Post by Joseph Mouhanna
[.....]
Post by DrSMITH
Maybe a common disaster can unite them ... but that's a pessimistic
wish.
You mean something like a 16-year savage and devastating resulting in the
emigration of more than half the population, hundreds of thousands of
civilian deaths, and complete economic collapse?
With if's and maybe's, one can put Paris in a bottle as goes the
saying in french. Sadly, the "disaster" you're mentioning didn't have
any effect on Lebanese. They're still as uncaring and arrogant people
as ever. Emigration is still a common objective among youth, and the
economic collapse is a daily fact. The stories of crooks abound. The
social differences are economic nowadays, and not religious or
sectarian anymore: politicians (and I include religious figures) in
Lebanon and their sectarian agendas are the only poison in the
country. At least, this is the impression I had.
DrSMITH.
wer
2004-08-24 09:01:08 UTC
Permalink
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+Karl+ROVE+%26+Ariel+Sharon+banking+on+their+Syrian+killers++%26+Murderers++%26+Special+Syrian+Assassins+of+Assef+Shawkat+%26+Roustom+Ghazaleh.&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&filter=0
Post by Joseph Mouhanna
[.....]
Post by DrSMITH
Maybe a common disaster can unite them ... but that's a pessimistic
wish.
You mean something like a 16-year savage and devastating resulting in the
emigration of more than half the population, hundreds of thousands of
civilian deaths, and complete economic collapse?
Joseph Mouhanna
2004-08-20 04:49:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by BM
We're a bunch of people who live on the same patch of land who don't
know how to get along.
Worse (IMHO). The majority of people who consider themselves Lebanese live
outside Lebanon. They visit Lebanon. Even if the Diaspora is incapable of
voting (unless they have a Lebanese ID and happen to be in Lebanon, and in
their districts), it's still a pole. Example: the Syria Accountability Act
and the role the Diaspora played in making it a law. The Lebanese
*collective* dynamic is far from stable.
Post by BM
A mandate authority French or Syrian is no substitute.
Agree. I also don't believe that the Lebanese do not have control over their
own destiny. True, there are external forces pushing Lebanon in directions
*some* of the Lebanese reject, but I believe that this is not a valid
excuse.
Post by BM
If you wipe out Lebanon from the political map and marge it with a neighboring
country you will still have the same people who don't know how to get along but
living in a larger patch of land.
Agree.
Post by BM
What some of our friends here on this forum
call a "farm" will become an even bigger farm.
Agree.
Post by BM
The problem is common purpose. Lebanese don't appear to believe in a
common purpose. The first order is self, then family, then sect and, at the
bottom of the stack, country. Maturity will not change the order of loyalty.
We need to agree on a loyalty that makes sense to all.
Agree.
Post by BM
We need to separate deen from dunya.
We need to relegate religion to where it belongs: individual choice. As you
point out above though, this is secondary, as people from the same tribe do
not have a common purpose nor a national identity.
Post by BM
As a Lebanese, I can not believe in anything but Lebanon even if every invader
occupies and the last Lebanese flees. What's left would still be my Lebanon.
I am optimistic that Lebanon will survive its current undeserving inhabitants.
I share your enthusiasm and optimism. I also encourage all those who believe
in Lebanon to do what they can, regardless of what they observe in Lebanon
or the Diaspora. We can only change the things we control and I'm optimistic
that over the long term, it will snowball into a better Lebanon.
Post by BM
Everyone who comes to Lebanon after enough generations pass start calling selves
Lebanese.
I can't agree more :-)
Post by BM
The magic is not in the people but in the land. The current
occupants of Lebanon don't deserve it. They have certainly not earned it.
I'd say that a large proportion of them have not earned it.
Post by BM
Perhaps they should move out and let a people more deserving settle
in the place who would have no problem pledging their loyalty to the land
called Lebanon.
How would they make their living? :-)

One of favorites episodes this summer happened in Dbayeh. At the water park,
I'm in line waiting to get tickets. The party ahead of me gets done, and as
I proceeded to the window, a guy cuts in. I turned to him and said "the line
is behind me". He backs off and noticing us speaking English, he says "you
know, I love order and respect lines, if everyone cuts in, it will be
chaos". He seemed like a reasonable guy, yet, he found it necessary to cut
in line (kid in tow).

More disgusting are vehicles with *special* license plates, who weave in and
out of traffic, cut you off, holler and insult and basically create very
hazardous driving conditions. If they're indeed who their licenses say they
are, they ought to be setting an example! My wife finally took away my
Lebanon driving priviliges, she said "it seems as if you really care, and as
long as that's the case, I don't want you driving in Lebanon, because if
you're not like them, you'll get a heart attack".
Post by BM
bassem
RodrYguez
2004-08-18 20:35:52 UTC
Permalink
a very intersting analysis

Rod

Le Tue, 10 Aug 2004 03:26:55 GMT, "Joseph Mouhanna"
Post by Joseph Mouhanna
The Lebanese economic situation should be evaluated as a whole and not in
piecemeal fashion.
Residential and tourism construction (restaurants, hotels, water parks,
1. The Lebanese Diaspora: occupation or not, Israel, Syria, PLO, Hizballah,
etc. it does not matter. As long as there is no open warfare, the Lebanese
will continue to pour in, especially American-Lebanese. Even
Hizballah-Israel skirmishes do not put Emanuella (South of Tyre) out of
business, and does not stop a group of 12 people from enjoying a lunch of
fresh fish and all the trimmings while Israeli jets break the sound barrier
in the background. Those Lebanese are also buying land and building in
record numbers. Their investments are not a vote of confidence in the
Lebanese government, nor are they an indication that Lebanese is or is not
under occupation. To most, it's like investing in the stock market: if you
can't afford to lose it, you'd be stupid to be there in the first place.
2. Gulf-State Arabs: These folks are avoiding America and Europe, as well as
diversifying their portfolios. It's also a way for them to cash in on the
boom in tourism on the part of the Lebanese Diaspora. In short, it's smart
business and just as in the case of the stock market, it's money they can
afford to lose, and not a statement on occupation of Lebanon or lack
thereof.
Yes, the Batroun nightclub scene is very lively. The government and the
status of Lebanon (occupied or not) had nothing to do with it. The personal
initiative of some American-Lebanese from the Batroun area did it. You can
spend two months in Batroun, go to a different nightclub and restaurant
every night, and still would not run out of quality places to go. If you
peel away the outer layers though, the local economy is not benefiting as it
should. Most of the labor is foreign, and most of the liquor is not locally
produced. Construction design is done by Lebanese, but the actual
construction labor itself is nearly 100% foreign (no taxes going to the
Lebanese government). Tourists arrive for the summer, eat in restaurants,
and leave as summer ends. One local bakery owner, who is so busy he has to
run his crew 14-hour days, 7 days a week told me that he would hop on the
first flight out to the US or Canada if he gets a half chance, and this was
a constant theme.
The tourism industry also requires an attitude that the Lebanese do not
have: humility and a "customer is always right" attitude (not there either).
I traveled in the Middle East this summer, and while family ties force me to
keep coming back to Lebanon, I found other countries, including those that
the Lebanese look down upon, much more pleasant (roads, attitudes, driving
habits, etc.).
As for prostitution, it's on the *rise*, but that's not a stability or
political indicator. During the darkest days of the war, prostitution was
also booming in Maameltain. It's regulated now.
Anyone who gets a half chance to emigrate is taking it, and those who run
restaurants (and live in Lebanon) would love nothing more than be able to
run those restaurants outside of Lebanon, and then go back for the summer to
eat and enjoy themselves.
Where is the infrastructure? the famous autostrade is nearly completed.
After 28 years of construction, they finally started painting yellow lines
on the outer edges. Perhaps they'll paint internal lanes by the end of
summer, oh, and it would help if the freeway lights on at night so people
can see where they're going. While we're at it why not shut down the illegal
on/off roads and get rid of bus stops *on* the freeway. It may also help to
build decent roads into Lebanese mountains (how about improving the
Beirut-Damascus road, it's quite busy after all). It would also be great if
traffic police issue tickets to drivers who drive in the wrong direction on
the freeway (because their "house or business is just around the corner"),
instead of *inventing* laws and regulations to make money off drivers (they,
not the government, make money by *fixing* the problem on the spot). The
list is very long, but it would also be nice if this freeway is completed
North to South.
Where is electrical power? Power is so expensive in Lebanon, it's
ridiculous. Power bills can run into the hundreds of dollars. With prices so
high, why is the government not capable of providing power more than 40% of
the time?
Where is the water? who do homes and businesses have to subscribe to water
delivery services? if delivery services are capable of tapping into water,
why can't the government?
Why does it cost so much for phone (cell and land)? It's rip-off.
Why do people have so little respect for each other? Why are they always on
cutting people off, passing on the right, left, shoulder, etc. not only
creates hazardous driving conditions, it also creates traffic jams and shows
how people think individually and not how the traffic as a whole should
flow. One day in July, they shut traffic down in Halat to fix the
South-bound lane. Instead of splitting the North-bound lane into two, the
South-bound traffic took over completely (as if this was not sufficient, my
driver opened up a freeway-shoulder lane), meanwhile a large group of
traffic police were smoking their cigarettes, waiting for the situation to
take care of itself.
Where is community sense? it does not exist. People put politics ahead of
everything else. The people who support the Syria accountability act do so
not out of a desire to see Syrian troops out, but because Syria does not
support the corrupt politician they call their leader.
Why don't we have a decent Internet service in Lebanon. I gave up on
connectivity this summer, it's not worth the wait.
Frankly, Syria is the least of our problems. There's an entire mentality
thing that needs to change before the country can decide whether or not it's
occupied.
I may be on a rant here, but 10 weeks in Lebanon in 2004 will do that to you
(and I'll be going back for more once or twice before the year is out).
--Joseph
Post by DS
No, it's not OK, because what's happening beneath the surface is a lot
more
Post by DS
sinister.
http://www.sunderland.ac.uk/~os0tmc/occupied/gender.htm
"What we now call the sex industry also grew in size with prostitution
increasing during the war. The combination of economic hardship and
increased demand from German troops led to growing numbers of prostitutes
working from licensed brothels and women working on the streets."
That of course is an extreme example of what people are willing to do to
cope with economic hardship. The numbers also state that foreigners are
gobbling up property in Lebanon in record numbers. The onslaught on
Lebanese
Post by DS
sovereignty that started as a military effort is now an economic one
running
Post by DS
full throttle. The current economic boom is a trojan horse that will
finish
Post by DS
off anything remaining of Lebanese heritage.
Post by BM
So you are saying that if there is tourism in Lebanon then nothing bad
is
Post by DS
Post by BM
happening in Lebanon? If there is tourism then occupation is OK?
Has it occured to you that if there were less occupation there may be
more
Post by DS
Post by BM
tourism and the country wouldn't be $30-40 B. in debt?
bassem
s***@gmail.com
2012-01-20 19:05:43 UTC
Permalink
Dear Sir / Madam


Greetings from MOODS TRAVEL !!!


It's with pleasure introducing our company as one of the Egypt based
Tour operators established since 2009.


MOODS TRAVEL is a full-service travel agency dedicated to providing
Luxury Tours and Cruises, Escorted Tour Packages, Customized Tours,
and personalized Vacation Planning Services, intended to take the
worry out of planning your vacation. Our experienced, talented &
friendly staff is the key to the overall success of the company, a
multilingual team, trained to provide a personalized service to
satisfy the needs of all clients.


MOODS TRAVEL have exclusive departments staff for the Inbound CIS, GCC
(Bahrain, Kuwait, Dubai, Saudi Arabia). Middle east countries (Jordan,
Syria, and Lebanon) and European markets and liaises with the largest
Tour Operators in Europe. The Company? multilingual staffs and guides
extend friendly and professional service.


We specialize in tailor made holidays, whether for singles, couples,
families or groups, to any destination around Egypt & all over the
world. As Middle East Based Company, Moods travel is able to provide a
wide range of Classical Tours covering the most magnificent regions in
Egypt, Jordan, Tunisia, UAE, Bahrain, Qatar and Turkey


MOODS TRAVEL is committed to serve customers with professional care
and give them optimum satisfaction. We aim to meet and supersede all
tourism requirements by using advance technology to ensure a fast and
efficient service to our clients.


We have a various field of activities:


� Incoming and outgoing package tours

� Transportation by limousine cars and Air condition buses with
different capacities

� Meeting at airports and assistance through Passport Control
and Customs formalities


� Reservations for hotels, Cruises and train of all categories
International and Domestic air ticketing and reservations


� Recreational & entertainment.


� Group & Individuals Reservation.


� Transportation & Car Rent.


� Camel Safari & Jeep Safari.


� M.I.C.E. Industry


� Adventure Tours.


� Classical Tours.


� Middle East countries combined tours (Egypt – U.A.E. -
Jordan)


� Out - going Trips.


� Religious Tours.


� Airlines Ticketing.



Hope that our service will meet your acceptance


All above departments are monitored by our quality control department
with full authority to handle all clients? comments

thanks & best regards

OPERATION DEPARTMENT

Tel.: 00202 24518323

Email: ***@moods-travel.com

Mobile: 00201145738848

msn: ***@hotmail.com

Website: http://www.moods-travel.com ( Under construction)

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